Sorry for Apologizing_Dating with Lindsey Metselaar: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Sorry for Apologizing_Dating with Lindsey Metselaar: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell: activist, strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small, whether it's being expected to have children, tolerate chronic pain, or accept gender inequities from orgasms to paychecks. This season, we'll work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
Hello! So today's guest is my dear friend and a woman I love, Lindsey Metselaar. host of the dating.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Hi.

Missy Modell:
Host of the dating podcast, We Met at Acme, which is a must-listen-to if you are listening. How's it going?

Lindsey Metselaar:
It's good. I'm so excited to be here. I got too excited and didn't even let you finish your intro, but I'm just happy to be with you.

Missy Modell:
I'm so happy to be with you. We start every show with a tweet or some kind of note that I'd love you to respond to. Why? Okay, so here it goes from Daddy Dumpling. "Why is modern dating culture just a game of who can act the most uninterested?" What does that feel like for you? Is that real?

Lindsey Metselaar:
It's very real. And I wish that I knew, but unfortunately, that's just, that's just how it has become. And I do think there is power in vulnerability, but I think for the first couple dates, it is a dance of I don't want to put all my cards on the table, and that's just something that we've had to accept.

Missy Modell:
So with the show, I love to dig back into history just for a mere moment, not to bore anybody, but I find, I found this super fascinating. So dating is a relatively new phenomenon. It was in the turn of the 20th century, and women were obviously never in a position of power as it related to dating. And in the 1910s, I don't know if you know this, they were called charity girls because they were working not just to support themselves but their fathers. And they at the time learned, at the time they earned less than half of what a man would earn in the same position, and that's how it came to be, that women were treated by men on dates in heterosexual relationships. I just found that super fascinating.

Lindsey Metselaar:
That's so interesting. I didn't know that. And so, but they wouldn't be like paid for the dates.

Missy Modell:
No.

Lindsey Metselaar:
They would be paid for on the dates.

Missy Modell:
And in fact, prostitutes got upset because they felt like they were taking their work from them. So they were charity because there were no favors exchanged, just merely treating them.

Lindsey Metselaar:
That's so interesting.

Missy Modell:
Yeah.

Lindsey Metselaar:
It kind of, I don't know if that makes me happy or sad. I feel like I wish that it was a little bit more romantic.

Missy Modell:
It didn't turn romantic, so personalities were not even part of the equation, it was truly looks. And in the 1920s, personalities, when makeup came to be, they went hand in hand. When women were painting their face as expression, they also started using their personalities when they were working as shop girls. It's like a whole fascinating thing that I had no idea about, and the idea of the shop girl was to court wealthy men, so.

Lindsey Metselaar:
That's so interesting. And also, like, I don't understand how you go on a date with someone and not show your personality at all. Do they just smile the whole time?

Missy Modell:
Smile, looked pretty. And that is providing that context. I'm so interested obviously, in moving to today, how that, how do you think that relates, if at all, this kind of power dynamic? In heterosexual relationships, we'll preface.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, I think there's still that dynamic in a lot of ways, especially because we're still not making as much as men are, so they should be treating us not like for our dads but for us now. And I think there is still that idea of a man should take a woman on a date and not necessarily the other way around in a hetero situation. What do you think?

Missy Modell:
So I think, you actually said that, somebody said the labor that women go into to go on a date, to get in an Uber, to do their hair, to do their makeup, like the actual time equity it takes, we deserve to be treated for that.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, like we are getting our nails done, our hair done. We are already like net 300 below when we're walking into that date. So for them to pay for us, it's like not a big deal.

Missy Modell:
And so the question is we're obviously in a bit more of an advanced power position now than we were in the 1920s, but there's still obviously work to be done. How do these traditional values still apply? Because I know you speak a lot about the rules, so I'd love to hear from you how you think that shifts as women are in these positions of power. But how do we keep that dynamic?

Lindsey Metselaar:
I think we can still be in power, but that doesn't necessarily need to be seeping into our relationship, at least in the courting stage. In the courting stage, a man should act as if he doesn't even know that you have money. Even if you're walking into this dating situation and you make more than the guy, he is the one pursuing you, he is the one asking me out on dates, he should be treating for the dates. And I think that often women, we get so excited about the fact that we are equal in so many ways that we want to take it into dating and that's not sexy. It's not sexy for you to fight with a guy over trying to pay for a date. It just, it doesn't make them feel good, it doesn't make them feel useful. And I think men want to feel useful and men want to feel like they did something nice for you.

Missy Modell:
And something that I genuinely recently am absorbing is I am a very out there, I'm very outgoing and open and passionate, and I feel like that is not always worked to my benefit, even on these first dates, I almost maybe came across as too eager. So what are these games? Because I'm like, you know what? I don't want to play games. I'm in my 30s, I'm over it, I should just be upfront, but that's not really how it works, correct?

Lindsey Metselaar:
No, I still think that you should be your outgoing self. I don't think that your personality should change. No, I just think that we shouldn't reveal too much on first dates, second dates. It's more of a slow burn, like a peeling back of the layers of the onion type of thing. But having an amazing like personality is not something that you ever need to dim when you're dating, especially your personality.

Missy Modell:
I think more like in the after-date part, like I think I was just too quick to respond to texts or I, yeah, like I'm just curious your take on this, like, how do you balance because I think so many people, you're in a space that's like arguably one of the most talked about, conversations in modern history, like dating and love and relationships and sex. Like how do we show up as this authentic, outgoing self but still keep that interest, keep I don't know what the word is. The game, I guess I'm calling it the game.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, I think that's when like my rules come into play. You, again, your personality shouldn't change. You shouldn't wait to respond to someone's text. I actually don't like that. I find that to be game-playing, but you should let them be the one that instigates all of these and is the initiator of the text of the plans. When you do get, hear from them, you respond as yourself. You do showcase your personality, but you aren't like, hey, what's going on? Like, why haven't you texted me, when's our next date? You just let them lead, but when they do reach out, like you respond as normal.

Missy Modell:
And what about sex? Like we've seen this huge surge of, like, women's own, women owning their sexuality and talking openly about it. How do you think that plays into it? Because I think that's a huge thing that you talk about.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, I think that sex, owning your sexuality, go off, like you should feel that you can do that. When it comes to dating and wanting something more serious with someone, I do think that is so crucial to wait to have sex. Not because you're like a slut or, you know, anything negative, but more so because you are getting to know each other, the buildup is much hotter when you have taken this time to understand each other, see what the other person would even want when it comes to sex. I actually was just talking recently on a podcast about how I think it's so hot to talk about sex, like on a date, like on like fourth or fifth date, asking the, them at dinner, like, what are, what's your favorite position or what are things you like in the bedroom? That is way hotter to me than just like doing it and not really knowing the person yet, because it's, it creates a false sense of connection that a lot of women, especially if the sex is good, get like addicted to, and then they lose their head.

Missy Modell:
I've been there. It's so easy.

Lindsey Metselaar:
It's crazy.

Missy Modell:
It's, it distorts any rational thought. So, this is the person for me because you have this, like, kinetic connection.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, it's bad.

Missy Modell:
What are other non-negotiable/like rules that you think people listening should really be writing down?

Lindsey Metselaar:
And I think that another thing that I see very often is people spending so much time on these dates, like upwards of three hours, four hours, five hours, even 24 hours, and then wondering why they haven't heard from the person who spent way too much time with them. You gave them too much too soon. And I don't mean sexual, again, I'm just saying you literally gave them your time, which is the most precious, most important thing in the world is time. And you gave somebody who you don't know, who's a stranger, six hours of it. You know, they're not going to respect you after. Even if they don't even know that they're doing that, it's on a subconscious level. The first date should be like an hour, two hours maximum. You are just like testing the waters, and then make a plan with a girlfriend. You shouldn't be dedicating an entire four hours of your night to someone that you don't know.

Missy Modell:
I just was actually talking to a girlfriend last night and she said I felt bad leaving. I wanted to leave, I knew there was no connection, but women feel like they have to show up and be kind, and even in a situation they're not wanting to be in, they feel pressured. What's a good out for somebody that wants to leave but they feel stuck?

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, and I love that you brought that up because it goes back to the nature of your podcast. It's like we are just letting these guys take our time because we feel guilty and it's not fair. I would usually do the like the classic. My roommate or my friend just called me and she really needs my help, she's really sick, or like my friend's boyfriend of 16 years just broke up with her, I got to go. For it takes, I think that they usually get the hint, sometimes they don't and it's crazy. I was on a date years ago, it was a setup, and it was so not it. Like I felt like I was asking all the questions and he was just answering them and it was so weird. I felt like he didn't want to be there, but I really didn't want to be there either, but I had to carry the conversation for some reason, and then eventually I was just like, yeah, I got to go. Like, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize, blah blah, blah. And then he asked, he was like, he sent a text, being like, last night was so great, would love to take you out again, and like, how are you that delusional?

Missy Modell:
What was the disconnect, do you think?

Lindsey Metselaar:
I think that sometimes people who are extremely insular and just focused on themselves as they relate to other people, they think that dates where they talk a lot, go and went well. And every time a friend of mine is like, But the date went so well and he didn't text me, I'm like, let's break this down. Did it go so well or did you just talk about yourself a lot? And so you were having fun. Were you tuned into how he was actually feeling on this date? And I just see that a lot, so I think that was a perfect example of that, where he just thought like it was going well because I was seemingly in a good mood and asking him questions and carrying the conversation, and it's no, dude, I did all the work and you also suck and I wasn't attracted to you.

Missy Modell:
It's really interesting because I think you know this, but I have been in relationships pretty much since I was 18, like steadily, and this is one of the first and longest periods of time that I've been single without a boyfriend. I'm like obviously dating, and I've just had the experiences that maybe had, like people had eight years ago and I'm first experiencing it. I've never really been ghosted. I've never really had these like, confusing interactions and it's very humbling. But I've had two experiences recently where the guys were super into me. I wasn't that into them and I was like, would I go out with them? I'd give them a second chance and then I get a text from them the next day, I didn't feel a romantic spark. But they tried to kiss me, they tried to do all these things. Is that just an ego save? What is that?

Lindsey Metselaar:
I don't think so. I'd like to think that it's genuine and guys are, and people are, in general, are getting better at being upfront.

Missy Modell:
Which I appreciate.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Totally, but if, can be coming from a place of feeling rejected and them wanting you to be like, oh, I did, let's give it another chance, which is just unrealistic and never going to happen.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, but even then it's so funny. My instinct is to be like, wait, what did I do? Even though I genuinely wasn't feeling the connection either. But my, I felt the rejection kick in and my ego.

Lindsey Metselaar:
That's because as women especially, we want to be liked so badly. Which goes back to why we apologize all the time, and we are more concerned with if they're enjoying us on the date than if we're enjoying them, which we need to like totally change and tune into, am I, how am I feeling? Observe yourself. Like, how am I feeling around this person? What side of me are they bringing out and do I feel good when I leave them? Do I miss them? All of those questions.

Missy Modell:
That's really good. It's something that I talk about a lot recently is this societal pressure. I'm 36, I thought I'd be married, I thought I'd have kids by now, and it's you know, my life didn't map out the way that I thought it would and for the right reasons. What do you say to people that do feel bad about themselves? Like, I sometimes get into moments where I almost put people on a pedestal that are loved by someone else and are in these like, really healthy relationships, and people feel like frustrated with the dating landscape and they haven't met anybody. What do you say to these people? And the moments that I occasionally get.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Honestly, it sounds so cheesy, but I'd say, I'm so excited for you. I'm so excited that you don't know who you're going to end up with yet. There's no, I wish I could talk to my 29-year-old self who was like, Oh my God, like, I'm gonna be alone and be like, I cannot wait for you to meet the person because that's really what ended up happening. And it like, there's no difference between if you're 36, if you're 40, if you're 29, because if you want that, like that's going to happen for you and you're putting all the right things out there. And I did an episode recently on my podcast called The Best Things, The Best Relationships Come to Those Who Wait. And it was people writing in these stories that, you would love this episode, about meeting people later on. And those relationships that they talk about are so much more fulfilling and more amazing than meeting in college and just marrying because you've been together forever, because you are a totally completed entity and you're combining with another totally completed entity. So it's not like you're completing each other, you're two complete things. So instead of being a half and a half making one, you're one and one making two, and that's so much cooler. Like the combination is like electric, it's like immediate power couple.

Missy Modell:
That's such an important shift because we don't hear that perspective a lot, unfortunately, but it's so true, and I'm immediately listening to the podcast when we hang up.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, I'm excited for you too.

Missy Modell:
How do you know that the person is right for you? Because, you know, I have friends that had been working with their now partner and they were right in front of them all along. Some people, love at first sight, they had a one-night stand, they're married for 12 years. What is the feeling we should be looking for?

Lindsey Metselaar:
The feeling for me was definitely a sense of like home and knowing that whenever I was with this person, like as cheesy as it is, it wouldn't matter where the fuck I was in this world. We were in like Indonesia, in like a random thing, I would still feel a sense of home because they were right next to me. I don't, like you don't feel FOMO at all when you're with this person. I think that's something that people, especially like millennials and Gen Z need to pay attention to because I've been in relationships where like, I was just dying to run into the bathroom and be on my phone, see what else is going on, see what other people are doing. And I think just not wanting to change them at all, which is really hard because if you're, if you have any Virgo in your chart like me, you want to change so many things about so many people, but not wanting to change them, like accepting them totally as they are. And of course, like the things we brought up before, like how they make you feel, what side they bring out in you. And something that I really never used to pay attention to in past relationships is values and like similarities in how you were raised and what you value and what you find important. If you guys would do the same thing if you randomly came into, I don't know, $50,000, someone handed it to you both, would you do the same thing with that money?

Missy Modell:
Broke up my last relationship, our perspective on money and leisure and even just like how we spend our time was so different, yeah, like, completely opposite from, like, where we, I'd want to stay in a hotel, he'd want to stay in, like, a crappy Airbnb. And not even a five-star hotel, like I prefer, and I love Airbnb too, it just, and like our outlook on charity and giving back to people, it just was very different.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Yeah, I've been in that relationship too. It's hard.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, it's really hard. And I think it's interesting because we have so many options now. So I'm just wondering for you people that are so against the apps, are they essential? It's like being on a dating app like crucial in this age, or is there a hope to find it elsewhere?

Lindsey Metselaar:
I think if you're not going to go out and constantly put yourself out there, they are essential. If you are someone that's meeting people all the time, then they're not. But I think if you are delusional about someone breaking into your apartment and getting down on one knee, then you need to be on the apps and you need to use them. It's like a muscle.

Missy Modell:
And you talk so many, you talk a lot about the apps. What do you say to people that feel uncomfortable with how they are and apps are so visual and maybe they're not where they want to be physically? What would you tell them and how would you navigate that for them?

Lindsey Metselaar:
I would tell them to focus on their strengths that they know are amazing. So if they are uncomfortable with how they look, but they have an amazing personality, showcase that on the app, say, say something that's really fucking funny so that when people are scrolling, they're like, Oh my God, this person is so funny, I'd bet their personality is amazing. It is, show off what you know you do have. And if for some reason you are someone that continuously does not get matches on these apps, either call me for a dating profile consultation or try getting off the apps for a bit and doing things in person involving yourself in more activities like a sports team or an improv class or whatever it is.

Missy Modell:
And what do you think are some myths you'd like to debunk around dating?

Lindsey Metselaar:
Ooh, great question. I think one that you hear all the time is you'll find that when you're not looking, and if you're not looking, you're not looking, like you don't see, and so I think you should always be looking. I don't think you should be looking in like, oh, my God, I need to meet my husband tonight, but keep your eyes open, see who's sitting next to you at the coffee shop. And I think that one gets overused so often, and are we that trustworthy of a narrator? Not really, not if we have mental health problems like I do. Yeah, like you might think every time, but hindsight is 2020, so I would always give people at least 2 or 3 dates unless you're absolutely repulsed.

Missy Modell:
So I feel like it used to be, just give it a date, you'll know after the first date. You don't know after the first date.

Lindsey Metselaar:
I think after the second. Unless again, like, unless you're totally, they do something that's completely off-putting on the first.

Missy Modell:
Like telling me I can't order bolognese because they're kosher at the restaurant. Is that a, that brings the point. What is a deal breaker versus a red flag?

Lindsey Metselaar:
Guess that would fall into the category of them trying to control what you do because of their own issue. Like I have a friend who's kosher and her husband is not, but she didn't tell him she, he couldn't order what he wanted. So that's, yeah, that's odd.

Missy Modell:
And he was the guy that was like, can't wait to do this again. And then the next morning I didn't feel a spark, it was super strange.

Lindsey Metselaar:
So weird.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, very weird. Okay, any other myths? Can, okay, can the woman approached the man at the bar first or out first? Because there are conflicting theories on this, that how you put yourself out is the dynamic of the relationship, and then you become the hunter.

Lindsey Metselaar:
I think yes, but then you need to immediately switch that dynamic and let them pursue you. So you can send out the first signal, but then you have to back away. But I do think obviously in an ideal world, they approach you. But I think in 2023, men are more timid because of everything that we've done, like we've had with the MeToo and everything. I think that you can go up and say show interest and then let them take it from there.

Missy Modell:
And what do you say to people that, again, going back to the societal pressure with family, because that's been a huge thing, I think, for so many of my friends and me, occasionally. You go out to a family function, everyone's like, I can't believe you're single, how are you single? Not helpful. Like, makes me feel so uncomfortable. What is the, what would you say to one, get rid of that like doubt, like it makes you question, why am I single, and what's a good response?

Lindsey Metselaar:
It's the actual worst. I would probably be like, so crazy, right? So crazy. Anyway, how are you, Barbara? Just find an immediate just deflection because people are just projecting their own shit like ten out of ten times.

Missy Modell:
Totally, and do you think that this is going to shift at all? Do you think that women will just forever be the ones being courted, or do you see a future in which this can kind of change?

Lindsey Metselaar:
I think a lot of things will change except for this, this is like the age-old. I think that because men are changing and becoming more like in touch with their feminine side, they, there will be more like blurred lines, like there will be some women who pursue men, but those are the men who are more like feminine, if that makes any sense.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, and lastly, what I ask all of our guests, what are you sorry for apologizing for?

Lindsey Metselaar:
Oh, that's good. I think I'm constantly sorry for apologizing for taking too long on an email. And you know what? Fuck you. Like, I will respond when I goddamn want to. If it's a week later, that's okay. Yeah, so I started changing that to, thank you for your patience in my response.

Missy Modell:
And if I make a mistake, oh, thanks for catching that. Instead of, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Great catch.

Lindsey Metselaar:
I love that. Yeah.

Missy Modell:
Okay, that's amazing. And where can people find you? How can people work with you?

Lindsey Metselaar:
They can find me, WeMetAtAcme.com. We Met at Acme wherever you listen to podcasts and on Instagram @WeMetAtAcme.

Missy Modell:
And what do you do for work? And you mentioned consultations?

Lindsey Metselaar:
Oh yeah, I do dating app consultations and all the info is on the website.

Missy Modell:
All right, perfect. You're amazing, thanks, Linds.

Lindsey Metselaar:
Thank you.

Missy Modell:
Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing, brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, follow me @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok or head to Rescripted.com, and don't forget to like and subscribe.

Sonix is the world’s most advanced automated transcription, translation, and subtitling platform. Fast, accurate, and affordable.

Automatically convert your mp3 files to text (txt file), Microsoft Word (docx file), and SubRip Subtitle (srt file) in minutes.

Sonix has many features that you'd love including automated translation, world-class support, collaboration tools, transcribe multiple languages, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.